The Freelance Playbook

Are Consulting Jobs Dangerous For Your Business? [Ep189]

• Ariel Martinez

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What do you do when a potential client asks you to show them how to do their own videos instead of hiring you to do the video for them. We're discussing the stigma of doing consulting work with our prospective clients. Is this good or bad for your business and the industry in general.

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Ariel Martinez

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 Ariel Martinez (00:00): So their idea is, well, we could do it ourselves. Let's get Ariel to teach us. All right. Ariel went, Ariel showed them. They know that they it's just not sustainable. So now they understand now they still have to get videos done. Now they're gonna pay me to do it. Welcome back to another, the ifilmmaker podcast. My name's Ariel Martinez with us. Now you have been promoted to big Mike? Yes. Mark Hernandez (00:27): It's like tiny. It's like opposite. Ariel Martinez (00:30): Yeah. Be careful Mike. We can go back down to Mikey. Mark Hernandez (00:32): No, no, no, no, Ariel Martinez (00:33): No, no. All right. So big Mike is with us. How you doing man? Mark Hernandez (00:37): I'm doing good. How are you? Ariel Martinez (00:37): Good man. Good, good, good. Uh, so I had a recent trip. I had a recent trip to Jersey, right. And my first time being in Atlantic city, I apparently, I didn't know that that place is like another Vegas. Right? It's like another, like full of casinos and whatnot. I've always heard about it. I didn't know what the whole history was at, but anyways, it was a business trip. Weren't there for that. I had a client and I wanna know what your thoughts on this is. I had a client that was, I've had 'em on retainer, right? For, for the past. I mean, I, they started being my client six years ago and we were on retainer for the first three or four years. And I was doing a lot of work for them and it was great. And then I would two and a half years ago, they cut our contract. Right. They cut our contract. It was budgetary reasons and whatnot. So obviously the videos had to stop. They still hired me for individual work. They still hired me to do the videos that were always doing for them, but on a per project basis, which is fine. I got to charge more. Yeah. Long story short. Now they're calling to ask me to teach them, to consult them on how to do the videos right now, Mark Hernandez (01:54): How to actually Ariel Martinez (01:54): Do it, how to, yeah. So now they want to go and do it themselves. Mm. So dumb, Mark Hernandez (02:01): Dumb, dumb, Ariel Martinez (02:01): Right. So this is where, what to Mark Hernandez (02:03): Do. Ariel Martinez (02:04): A lot of people, uh, you know, have their opinions on this. Um, so I took it, you know, they, they wanted to pay my rate, my normal day rate, which it varies. I've never really been paid for consulting before. So I just took my day rate and kind of like put some extra of fluff on top, which is what I, you know, it's my own evaluation. Yeah. Of what I think that's worth. Just question. What would you do in that situation? How would you approach first of all, has anything like that ever happened to you before Mark Hernandez (02:36): It's happened to me in, in, in different ways? Um, it was more with the studio that I was working at. Okay. So it wasn't my personal client, but we're all kind of involved in seeing what's starting to happen, where it, in that scenario, they were purposely trying to phase us out and they were kind of not hiding it, but they're willing to pay us to set them up. And it, it, it was at a, we, we just had to kind of do it cuz we, it wasn't my personal client. So it was kinda like, all right. So we go and, and this is a huge corporate client, big, um, maybe a fortune 500 company at the time. Wow. So, you know, it's just how higher level. So we go in there, we set 'em up, they give us a room to basically build, um, a little studio for them. Mark Hernandez (03:24): We set it all up. We bring these carpenters in, we bring in, um, gaffers and grips and stuff like that. And, and we set up and then my team set up all the cameras and all the good stuff that they're gonna need. And I found that they kept kind of hiring us to come in to kind, just keep working it at their own little mobile or little tiny studio, and then eventually train some of their people. And it did leave. They did take on a bunch of stuff, but for the bigger things, they still kept coming back. Mm. So what I'm seeing is a lot of in this, in this world of self-promotion and, um, and corporate clients is that they wanna be able to have the ability to do the, the, the insignificant things. And what I mean by that is sure. The stuff that doesn't require massive budget of hiring a studio and a bunch of personnel to create these little content. Mark Hernandez (04:10): Like for example, they're selling a toaster and there's a bunch of Q and a, or Q questions on why is this not working? Or they can just make a quick little video. Hey guys, this is how this, how you fix this. We'll send it out. Of course, I'm gonna pay $15,000 for that. Sure. So in that sense, it makes it, it, it worked and they kept coming back to us for the bigger product shoots and stuff like that. Um, but it is, um, for a personal client, I haven't had that happen yet, except for one time where I had a, um, a medical company ask me to come in and train their, their EA their, or the executive assistant on video editing. And I was like, I asked, does this person even have any interest in this? Is this even part of their job title? Mark Hernandez (04:52): Is this something they even wanna do? And they're like, yeah, yeah. We're, we're trying to streamline some things. All right, cool. So, you know, I charge them a hefty rate for essentially could consulting and teaching and it went nowhere real fast. And I was like, yeah, this isn't something that you just do from one day. The next, this is something I've put years into, you know, perfecting and learning and constantly learning even more every day. Even just talking with you, the little techniques you do, and little techniques that I do, that we both grow off each other. And yeah. That quickly just went away. It was one day and the girl was like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. And I was like, Ariel Martinez (05:25): Yeah, that's essentially what happened over in Jersey. Yeah. Like I started, it was a two day thing and it was a good rate too. But once they started seeing, first of all, two days is not possibly enough for me to teach 'em everything I've learned in the past eight years. Yeah. Um, once they started realizing everything that goes into a dude, we, we only got into camera settings. The first two days, we didn't get into lighting. We didn't get into audio. We didn't get into post-production. We didn't get into any of that stuff. So the idea was to go over there and help them set up the new gear that I had recommended that they got and help them show them how to light it. And at the same time, do some samples so that they could edit it after we're done. I had no editing work afterwards. I ended up taking the footage home cuz they asked me to edit it. Mm. Regardless, some more work for me. So it is what it is. I just wish it would've told me that. Cause I was setting them up with like CE tone and not slog three. Like I normally record. So I'm like, nah, I gotta edit all this like CE Mark Hernandez (06:27): Tone stuff. Ariel Martinez (06:28): Cause they told me at the end of the trip, like, Hey, you gonna have to edit all this for us, man. Yeah. It's like, oh man, I would've shot Mark Hernandez (06:33): You. Would've Ariel Martinez (06:33): Told me. I know. I wish you would've told me. Cause I was setting them up to sort of shoot everything relatively auto, right. Use auto, you know, white balance that you should be fine there. And I'm showing them like the different scenarios where you might want to go into a regular fixed auto, uh, white balance, cetera, you know, it's just things that is not Mark Hernandez (06:51): Try to keep as simple as Ariel Martinez (06:51): Yeah. They can't possibly retain that information. But anyways, I was confident in that. They're not gonna be able to do this. I'm super confident. Cause I know that client too. I know them very well. It was definitely, uh, an experience, but it was also a learning experience. And you know, the reason why I wanted to share this is because there's a lot of people that hold that really close to their chest. I saw it as an opportunity to get more work and it worked right. So I got had to edit everything. But on top of that, now they're sending me even more stuff to edit. Cuz the whole idea is they they're basically stuck now cuz yeah, they have to pay me to do the, the videos. They haven't had videos in a long time. Right. And I, I would say like a year they haven't refreshed anything and they're a big, heavily heavy content type of company. And now they need more videos. Our idea is, well, we could do it ourselves. Let's get Ariel to teach us. All right. Ariel went, Ariel showed them. They know that they it's just not sustainable. So now they understand now they still have to get videos done. Now they're gonna pay me to do it. Mark Hernandez (07:53): So what I would say is anyone who's going through that situation of what should I do? Should I, cause it's a, it's a bit vulnerable. Like, am I just gonna lose the client? A lot of people are Ariel Martinez (08:01): Thinking, right. That's what a lot of people are fearful of. Mark Hernandez (08:03): I think one of the greatest things about being asked that by a client is that they are already edifying you as the expert. Yeah. And if you say yes to this gig where you're in a way, possibly relinquishing the way that the scope of the project looks at the moment where you're doing everything, the great thing about it's you're gonna always be the expert, which means anytime something gets a little bigger than what that crew can handle yeah. Comes right back to you. Yep. Yeah. And not to be afraid of that, cuz I, if all that means is higher prices, less work. Yeah. Which is, um, I have a friend that always, I, I hadn't seen him in years. I need always says his phrase and it's never changed. And he gets me laughing every time he goes, I'm like, Hey, how you doing? And he speaks Spanish. He goes lot of money. What was little work? Yeah. Little work. And uh, I was like, that's a great, you know, quote for your life. And uh, and that's generally what we're I think all trying to get at is we wanna be able to get paid higher for the minimal amount of work so that we can handle bigger and better things. Yeah. Um, so it's a great position Ariel Martinez (09:07): To be in. Yeah. And I would say this consider a couple things like when they cut the, when they cut our contract, right? Like when they cut our contract, I was in bitter. I was disappointed. Nobody likes that. Right. Of course. I was like, man, that was some good money that was coming in. But I understand, understand that the primary goal of every business, yours mind theirs everybody's is to make as much money as possible and keep expenses as low as possible. So you can make profit. Right. So that is the, the, the main, uh, goal for every single business. I took this in, in marketing 1 0 1 in college profit maximization. Right. So if they see an, an opportunity to cut, to make more profit, they're gonna take it more often than not. Sometimes it might, it might rub them the wrong way. If it's a little bit too insensitive, right. Ariel Martinez (09:55): I'm talking like making cuts and all that stuff, whatever. But they make those decisions based on feeling, not based on profit. Right. So that's a whole nother story, but that's their goal and know that it's not out of malice. So why would I have bad malice toward them? They weren't doing it to hurt me. They were doing it to make more profits. I get that, you know, but I have, you know, and doing this, I had confidence that, you know, uh, that they were going to see you, everything that it took to, to make the videos the way that I did for all these years. And yeah. And they found value in that. Now they find even more value now, you know? So definitely like don't shy away from those opportunities to show your clients what you do because that might come back as more work. If you know, you're really showing them everything. And I was open with everything, you know, I'm showing them all, but again, I cannot possibly fit in eight. No, you really, 10 years, eight years I started my business, but I was doing it for 10 years. I can't possibly show them 10 years or worth of experience in just two days. It's just not possible. Mark Hernandez (11:01): Okay. So I have a scenario for you. Okay. What if it's like a different client, right? Sure. Same scenario, different client. What if they told you they, they have your retainer. They tell you we're gonna, we're gonna cut that for budgetary reasons. And we hired a bunch of production, young bucks. They come in, we just need you to set us up with the right gear, lighting, everything. And we're gonna take over from here. Ariel Martinez (11:22): And the people that they hire are gonna Mark Hernandez (11:24): Take over, take it over. Ariel Martinez (11:25): Cause they tried to offer me that job and I couldn't take it exactly. Cause it was too little and not find jump bucks to do it. Mark Hernandez (11:30): So what, what's your feel there? Ariel Martinez (11:32): So my feel there is my rate just went up like 10% or 20% or 50%, whatever my rate just went up on that. You know, now I know that they're serious. They're gonna continue to put, let's say they're gonna get, take my retainer that they were paying me. And they're gonna put that all toward hiring somebody internal or hiring two people, internal, whatever it is. But now I gotta teach them how to do, how to basically take over my job. That's valuable. That's very valuable. So definitely I would put my rate up. I wouldn't still, I wouldn't say no, but my rate goes up. You're gonna really feel that, you know what I mean? Mark Hernandez (12:08): Um, and they probably wouldn't go with it. Someone else to do that because they, they already know you got momentum rhythm with Ariel Martinez (12:14): Them. No, cuz they actually have loved like jokingly, you know, they, they wanted me to move. They wanted me to move to Jersey. Nice to be there full time with them. And, but uh, it's a compliment. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is a huge compliment compliment anytime. And you know, you have options there, you know, but again, it's like, what would it cost for you to, to just drop everything and just go full time. That's expensive, man. At the, at the level that we're at. There's, there's not very many companies that are willing to pay that much, you know, cuz you're not only, you can't only look at it on, on what you made last year, what you made the year before that you have to look at the trajectory, right? So your value gets higher year after year after year. Cuz you're making more money. I'm pretty sure they're not willing to give you a raise that often, you know, so you have to see it that way. And then it's yours. You have options, you have freedom, you know, Mark Hernandez (13:02): It's hard to go from an entrepreneur mindset. Ariel Martinez (13:04): It's so hard Mark Hernandez (13:05): To go the other way. And it's not that the other way it's wrong. It's just when you're one way, it's Ariel Martinez (13:09): When you've already established, like it's easier. Like you're one after year two, maybe Mark Hernandez (13:13): Especially success for at least going up a, you know, a climb. If it's going the other way then okay. Gotta reevaluate Ariel Martinez (13:19): Some things you're in a big decline. But we spoke that in a previous episode to, to evaluate if this is even for you. So we've, you know, we've worked a certain way for a very long time. Yeah. We're we don't know when our next job is coming, but we know it's coming at some point it is a walk of faith. But if that thing that you can't jive with is if that's something that, that, that you just can't handle, maybe, you know, going on a steady income is, is the, the right route for you. You know, but understand that you're giving up a lot of freedoms. You're giving up a lot of sick days that you can possibly take. You know, it it's something that man, it, you have to evaluate that for yourself based on your own circumstances, your family, your income who's relying on your money, right? Ariel Martinez (13:59): Like, so things like that. If you need somebody that will put you where you would, you're supposed to be maybe three, four years from now, but they could do that today. Right. Is that how valuable is that to you? You know? Um, so that's definitely something to consider, but again, going back to teaching a company to do your craft. So what I've learned in the past 11 years of doing this is that man, it's not so not everyone might either pick it up. Some people might pick it up slower. Some people might pick it up faster, right? So it really also depends on the person and how fast they can learn. So even if I go and train people that are fresh out of film school, whatever young bucks, whatever it is, they're still, it's still gonna take time to develop their eye, Ariel Martinez (14:42): You know, time to develop. If something's in focus, how to pull that focus. It's the feel, it's a experience. It's the experience being on set. What I've learned. Most of what I learned is learning on set with other professionals, right. And just doing it and doing it and messing up and messing up and just continue to do it. Right. Getting those colors just right. I remember when I started coloring and I discovered like, oh, I could change a color of an image. Also my blues were way too blue. I oversaturated in everything. My everything was just so off. Like looking at it now it's matrix green. Oh my God. It was so terrible. But I was just happy to like, know that I can tweak colors. Right. So I would show a video to a client or somebody like I did a lot of videos for the church. I would always point out, you see how good those guys live? Mark Hernandez (15:33): Cause I spent time Ariel Martinez (15:34): On that. I spent time on that. Uh, but oh my God, like I did the typical, you know, beginner thing to do just to overdo it. Uh, Mark Hernandez (15:41): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ariel Martinez (15:42): Saturation was too high. It's like, look how good that. Yes. So I, I definitely went down that route, but again, value weight, you know, all that stuff, you know? Um, and what, what, what, how valuable that is to you? So I guess a good starting point is to get your normal day rate for me, I would get my normal day rate and put it like times five, maybe. Cause I'm, I'm giving its away. I'm giving a lot of potential work away, essentially. Mark Hernandez (16:10): It's not just about that. It's what's what could Ariel Martinez (16:13): Have been. Right. So times five. So if I used to charge a, a thousand bucks to go out there and do a shoot, I'm charging $5,000 per day to go out there and teach these people cuz you guys are gonna see now. Mark Hernandez (16:26): Yeah. If that's the case, do you think that the client can come back and be like, okay, now you're just trying to screw me over. Cuz you're that I'm wanting to cut this contract Ariel Martinez (16:33): Because they could find somebody else. Mark Hernandez (16:35): But if they're used to paying a thousand dollars for you, yeah. I'm not sure they're gonna be willing to pay 10 grand for two days. Ariel Martinez (16:40): That's okay. See the idea is this, the idea is this. If they can't go for that, it's not a problem. Like yeah. You, if you wanna lower that rate, that's fine. But here's the thing for me. Right? I'm giving away all the work, right. That's true. I'm giving away, away all the work and Mark Hernandez (16:54): It's, it's gonna go away Ariel Martinez (16:55): Essentially. And again, it's a business thing for me as well. It's no malice toward that. There's no malice in doing that. This is a business decision for me. I'm giving away even more money than what I'm charging. You used to. I used to charge you like 5,000 bucks for like, and I'm putting numbers out there for like two videos to do. Mark Hernandez (17:14): No, it makes sense. Ariel Martinez (17:14): How many videos are you gonna get on a monthly basis off two people that are working fulltime for you? Mark Hernandez (17:19): And I set that up for you. Yeah. Ariel Martinez (17:21): You're investing that. That's what you're investing. So that's kind of how I would kind of put it up for them. Mark Hernandez (17:26): That is putting yourself in a position of knowing your value, your quality. Ariel Martinez (17:29): Oh absolutely. I know what my, your standards. I know what the value is for them. Especially like as the business I'm talking them business to business. There's again, there's no malice behind this. It's that I'm setting myself up to lose a ton of work in the future. Let me go out in a very strong way. I love that. You know what I mean? That's great. Yeah. So that's exactly what, how I see it. Um, and I, I, I think it's fair. I think it's easily fair. On the other hand, they could say, no, that's too much, not a problem. Hey Mark Hernandez (17:57): Really? Isn't your problem though? Ariel Martinez (17:57): That's the thing, right? That's that's, we'll go our separate ways. Pay somebody less money. Now you don't know how they work. You have no experience with them. You know, that's, that's a good benefit of them seeing you the way you mentioned earlier, trust you, they have, they already trust you. They know the quality of my work. They know what I've been doing for them. For the past six years, I can set up their pre with all that stuff. And for dude, if they wanna pay me 5,000 bucks a day to go out there for three, four days and teach 'em, Hey, that's gravy for me. Mark Hernandez (18:24): Like stretching out the teaching. Ariel Martinez (18:27): Yeah, dude. But it, it takes a, a while. It takes a while to set 'em up and all that stuff, but it's like you, they have to see it in that way. You know? And there's no problem with that. Yeah. Your first reaction when I said 5,000 bucks a day, that's a lot of money. Yeah. But think about what you're going to get. You're hiring these people makes sense. You're hiring these people to do what I do. And they're gonna give you like that to times 10, probably you're you're gonna demand that they're there nine to five, you know? So you're gonna get a lot more stuff now you're making sure that you're gonna get it the same way that I was delivering it. You know? And then if we later on, when they need to schedule phone calls, cuz they didn't grasp something or they have questions, whatever it is not a problem. Ariel Martinez (19:07): Let's do 300 bucks an hour. Oh, not a problem. We'll get on a phone call and I'll and I'll, and I'll consult for you 300 bucks an hour, four or 500 bucks an hour, whatever it is, you put the value on that and understand that you're giving away your work. That's gonna, it's gonna hurt you. So you gotta mitigate that hurt. Right. So yeah. Um, yeah, it is what it is. And then, you know, they're saving money. They're not gonna have to, to pay me that much money anymore to do projects. That's not a problem. But again, you're, you're gonna have to offset that somehow. You know? So it's, it's it again, it's all business, nothing personal here. No malice intent, you know? Um, but you know, in this case they, they understood the value of what I was giving them. Finally. Not finally, they, I think they just never paid mind to it, you know? Ariel Martinez (19:54): Yeah. But, uh, that's no, they have a lot more work. I actually, just before we started recording, they just texted me, Hey, we got a couple more videos that we need to add to that list. So now we have a whole list of that they need to do. Yeah. That's great. So it's just a ton of work that's coming in now all because I was willing to sort of be open with what I do. And if you're confident in your work for your clients, don't be afraid to show them like this is everything. Yeah. You think you can do it here you go. Do it. You know, like this it's, there's a reason why we're able to charge so much and it's not because of the gear. It's because of your experience. You can give somebody a red, give somebody an Alexa, mini looks worse than an iPhone and it looks worse an iPhone if they don't know what to do with it. So there's value in your experiences. There there's value in the, the years that you spent doing this stuff for your clients. So any questions? Mark Hernandez (20:43): Hey, so, uh, client, if you're looking for someone to consult with and I I'll let you take it, I'll let you take it on, uh, five grand, Ariel Martinez (20:50): Five grand per day, Mark Hernandez (20:51): Half day, five grand. Ariel Martinez (20:52): Awesome. Well we'll Mark Hernandez (20:54): What wait, hotels per diem flight, Ariel Martinez (20:56): All that, all of it on top of, on top of the five grand Mark Hernandez (20:59): Free movies, free movie, popcorn Ariel Martinez (21:01): Room service, all that. Mark Hernandez (21:04): No, this is great. Ariel Martinez (21:04): Well, thank you guys for watching this episode of the iPhone maker podcast. We appreciate you tuning in Big Mike. That's right with us. Follow us on Instagram, on Facebook, on all the platforms links are down below in the description until then we'll see you on the next episode. 

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