On this episode Mike and I discuss continuing to work for clients who do not pay or pay late. What are our methods for dealing with that? How should this be approached? Our methods don't always work but like everything we talk about these are based on our experiences as freelance filmmakers.
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iFilmmaker Podcast
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Ariel Martinez
Gear used on the show:
On this episode Mike and I discuss continuing to work for clients who do not pay or pay late. What are our methods for dealing with that? How should this be approached? Our methods don't always work but like everything we talk about these are based on our experiences as freelance filmmakers.
Support our Affiliates:
_______________________________
iFilmmaker Podcast
_______________________________
Ariel Martinez
Gear used on the show:
Ariel Martinez (00:00):
What, if you don't see the monetary value in the money that they're paying you, but you see value in the relationship that you're building or in the project that you're doing. Right? So I, I, today I'll do a job for 400 bucks, but who am I doing it for? What can they, what else can they offer me? Meaning relationship wise, is there a benefit to doing, to being a part of this production? Welcome back to another episode of the ifilmmaker podcast. My name's Ariel Martinez with us as big Mike. How we doing, man?
Mike Hernandez (00:37):
I have not worked out a day in my life
Ariel Martinez (00:40): Yet. You're big.
Mike Hernandez (00:41):
Yeah. I, I downloaded these. There
Ariel Martinez (00:43): You go. Downloaded that.
Speaker 3 (00:44): Yeah,
Ariel Martinez (00:46):
That was some fast internet bandwidth too.
Mike Hernandez (00:49):
Yeah, man. I got the best out there.
Ariel Martinez (00:52):
Awesome man. Well, on today's episode, I thought we can discuss what I'm calling. I'm terming this
trademark play without pay. I'm sure nobody has ever used that before.
Mike Hernandez (01:06): Fun topic.
Ariel Martinez (01:07):
I thought today we can discuss those interesting scenarios where we either have a one time client. That's a one off that they're in town and that's it or continuous clients that, you know, call you all the time and whatnot. But there always seems to be an issue with payment, whether it's payment coming in, late them having issues with your rate, uh, the, the project that hand, there's always some sort of issue there. They're an nice people to work with, but you know, it's one of those things where you're kind of like on the fence, right? It's like, should I just continue start rejecting this client? Or should I continue to push forward with this client? Cause in a previous episode, we talk about why it's sometimes okay to keep clients that may pay you less, cuz they might bring good referrals later they on, or they
might for what a whole slew of different reasons might be good to keep them. But when do you let them go? You know, when do you kind of cut that relationship and say, maybe I'm not the person for you. I'm sure we have many stories.
Mike Hernandez (02:22):
Yeah. I've got, I've got one that just kept, you know, net 15 net, 30 net, 45 net net 100 million. Geez. And so I had a client just get to 100 million and uh, and so pretty much it's like one of those I'm just not available every time that they call. Yeah. Um, I don't wanna cut them off completely. I still wanna show some interest because there might be that day where, um, that producer who contacts me is working somewhere else in the, that, that, that, uh, standard of net 1 million doesn't exist there. I, I want a relationship to still be intact. Sure. Um, but yeah, I'm just kind of like, Hey, thanks for reaching out. I'm not available for that day. Yeah. Every time that they, there you
Ariel Martinez (02:57):
Go. And you know what, that's the way to kind of be on the fence of being on the fence. Right. That's the way of being on the fence of cutting that cord. But at the same time, they're at it's tall, they're at arms length. That's a way to keep them, but not keep arms
Mike Hernandez (03:12): And then little finger.
Ariel Martinez (03:14):
That's a good one. Yeah, no, I have one of the, I have several I, a client that, you know, they'll call quite a bit, uh, already the content that my client creates. I'm kind of like, it almost rubs me in the wrong way, in the sense that I'm very close to not liking the content. And I'm even close to like saying maybe some, this is a job for somebody else. Right. And I'm talking like, uh, ethically, spiritually, et cetera, et cetera, where I'm like, it's almost there. It's almost there. They're a good client in the sense that they have a healthy budget every single time. And we started off great. We started off really well. The now the problem is for one reason or another, the last, I don't know, six months they started like paying later and later. And I, it passed 30 it past 40 we're at 45 where like they haven't paid, they don't respond to me.
Ariel Martinez (04:14):
They haven't returned my emails. I'm like, and we've done several projects at this point where they paid a handsome fee. Right. And happily they're super happy with the work, et cetera, et cetera. But now it's like, what's going on guys? You know, like it's about that time, ready for that money. So, um, whatever, I'm very, I'm very patient. Um, the funny thing is the last project they pay me. And then on the same after it's been like 45 days and on the same day that they pay me, they said they, they reach out like a few hours later, Hey, we got a project coming up. It's like, ah, I see what you guys are doing. I see what you guys are doing
Mike Hernandez (04:55): Paid you.
Ariel Martinez (04:57):
So, and then now here we go. We're back in the same boat. We're like about at 45 days out from that project after I've been voiced them, they still haven't paid.
Mike Hernandez (05:06):
So hopefully they, hopefully they have another job and they'll pay you for that one.
Ariel Martinez (05:09):
Yeah. So I think that, I think my approach next time, and I think that it's understandable. I'm gonna ask them for payment up front, you know, cause, and I'll tell them why, you know, and, and these are one of those clients that, yeah, they have a handsome fee, but I'm okay. Not having them because I was already on the fence with regards to the content that they're making. It might be okay with me to say, pay me up front. If they decide to go somewhere else. Hey, that's fine. That's no problem. No, no hard feelings here. Promise you. Yeah.
Mike Hernandez (05:36):
I have a question for you with dealing with these kind of clients. Do you always have a contract in place
with them? No.
Ariel Martinez (05:42): No.
Mike Hernandez (05:43):
No. Okay. The, so I find myself, um, I, I find, I'm not sure if it's myself or if it's it's, sometimes I have this like notion that if I start bringing up contracts with the particular clients, like it's just a negative and I know it's not good cuz it's not protecting myself. Sure. Um, but there's like this pushback that it's almost like, well, if we're gonna go that route, then, then I'm gonna, I need to get this and I need to get that. And they just get a little bit more, you know, picky and choosy about stuff. Um, but like how, how do you, like, what percentage of your clients do you use contracts with?
Ariel Martinez (06:13):
I'll use contracts. If I have a lot to lose, lose, right. If I have a lot to lose. And if I, um, If it's a long term project, which is a lot to lose, cause that's a lot of time that I'm putting into it. Yeah. Um, I'll use contracts obviously if my client requests it, sometimes my client will request agreement. Um, which is fine. I have no problem. I already have a pre-written one, uh, that I just, uh, change a little bit. Um, I literally use contracts maybe 90 to nine. I don't use contracts maybe 90 to 99, 90 5% of the time. Um that's
Mike Hernandez (06:56):
Yeah. That's about where I'm at.
Ariel Martinez (06:57):
Yeah. And because yeah, you're right. Anytime you introduce something like that, that's more work for your client when you're trying to be of customer service. Right. But however, don't ignore your flags, do not ignore your flags. And of course this comes from me from experience. I've been burned one time cuz I ignored the flags. Um, and oh, I'm sorry. Another reason I'll use a contract or I won't use, uh, I'll use a
contract if um, If I really have an intention of pursuing it for that much money, right. I'm not gonna take somebody to court for 1500 bucks. I'm not gonna take somebody to court for 2000 or like
Mike Hernandez (07:39): Us that much in
Ariel Martinez (07:40):
Lawyer fees. I know. So it, it, it, it really is. Is are you really gonna pursue them for this? Right. And then consider the amount of work and money that you're putting into it. Right. I evaluate it like this Does the amount of work. Like I'm, I'm about to invest. I'm about to invest the safety 10 hours to work, bringing my gear. I'm not paying anything. And they're gonna, the, the agreement is that they pay me, uh, I've done my due diligence. I've seen that they have a business. I've seen the stuff that they've done in the past. They speak like they know what they're looking for. Like, they've done this before, so I don't see any flags here. Right. And honestly, I've, I haven't been burned that way. I've been burned because I, I, I ignore the flags that one time. Um, But I, other than that, I've been perfectly fine and I deal with my clients in a professional manner. It's almost like it's expected that they have to pay. They know that. Yeah. Net 30. I, I speak to them as if I expect them to know what I'm talking about. Right. And I've never had any issues whatsoever agreements in place and everything. Um, I think, yeah. And, and I haven't had any issues. I'm not telling people don't use any agreement. Like that's not, uh, yeah. I'm just giving you my experience,
Mike Hernandez (09:06):
But that's kind of how I operate too. If it's a, a one off gig, um, there's not a whole lot to lose. Yeah. Um, I won't introduce it just cuz of the question to start to bring up. Um, but I've had, you know, like a 20 and $30,000, um, gig, you know, full crew and everything and that, you know, that's worth, that is worth having it. I mean, you, you shouldn't go into project that size without any kind of contracts. You know what, just to protect yourself
Ariel Martinez (09:32):
Again, I break all the rules. Um, I've gotten to like $50,000 projects, $60,000 projects
Mike Hernandez (09:40):
With, I can't say that's wisdom.
Ariel Martinez (09:43):
It really isn't but you got no, but here's got bless, but no, but here's, here's the thing though. Here's the thing. It was with the client that I've been working with for eight years. That doesn't mean anything. Things can happen. And they paid me like whatever I needed up front, whatever I needed front. So if I had in that, in that project, if I had $22,000 in rentals and hires, et cetera, et cetera, I need that money up front. They had no problem. They gave me all that.
Mike Hernandez (10:13):
Sure. I would never go into it without all those costing care
Ariel Martinez (10:15):
A hundred percent. And, but
Mike Hernandez (10:17):
Hey, kids, kids, uh, getting into the business, don't take that
Ariel Martinez (10:21):
Risk. Yeah. Be careful with the risk. But again, like I had such a great relationship. I would never do this with a client that I'd never worked with before. Put it that way. I've been working with this client for almost 10 years at this point. Uh, you were there, you were a part of that big production. Uh, they, me, whatever money I needed up front, they wanted to make it easy for me, whatever I needed. Like it was so smooth that the, the idea of a contract never even entered my mind, you know, like it was never a thing
Mike Hernandez (10:49):
Here's what's, here's, what's interesting. Have you noticed that the highest paying clients are the easiest ones to work with and get paid from? And the lowest budget projects are the most tedious, difficult to get payment from. It's just so funny how that works.
Ariel Martinez (11:03):
Yeah. But also notice that the higher paying clients are harder to come by and the little ones are easier
to come by. So
Mike Hernandez (11:10):
It's, they're, they're the bread and butter most of the time. Yeah. But it's so difficult. And especially when you deal with like a producer or a client that you just, you kind of have the edge, educate them yeah. On the entire process. Yeah.
Ariel Martinez (11:21):
But at the same time, flip that around that the people that charge the Mo the most are the ones that are doing the best jobs, the people that don't charge or are, are, are taking less, less money are the ones that are either starting off. You're gonna get what you pay for in this industry. You know, you're gonna get what you pay for. And the, the work speaks for itself. People that are okay with blowing out the highlights, there's no experience there. That's what you're paying for. You want more money? You'll make sure that you have somebody that's not gonna blow out your highlights. That is not gonna under expose your shot. That's gonna take care of audio properly. It's gonna have a backup of all that stuff. And they're gonna handle it in a professional manner. That's what you're paying for, for the experience. Uh, people that are starting off that may not know these things, or haven't experienced these issues. Right. Um, and learning the hard way, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with learning the hard way, cuz you're still learning at the end of the day. Um, it's what you're paying for. It really is what you're paying for. But yeah,
Mike Hernandez (12:24):
What's um, what's the name of this show? I can't, what are we, what are you talking about? I feel like we just went
Ariel Martinez (12:28): Tangent play without pay,
Mike Hernandez (12:30):
Play without pay. So I've actually with, um, I dunno if you've ever worked with non-profits
Ariel Martinez (12:37): Oh yeah. Those are fun.
Mike Hernandez (12:39):
So maybe that kind of plays,
Ariel Martinez (12:41):
They, they always play we're a non-profit, uh, section, you know,
Mike Hernandez (12:47):
And I'm like, Hey, I'm for-profit
Ariel Martinez (12:50):
Maybe you should hire a non-profit videographer
Mike Hernandez (12:54):
That don't exist. Yeah, that's funny. So, um, we had, uh, one recently come up and uh, and you know, talk about a certain project and I've done, I've done a lot of things for them before. And this one, the moment that they came back and I got that email reaching out to me for a new project is one of those sinking feelings like, oh, this is like one of those, like, you know, where lawyers do pro bono work. And it's like, maybe this is the good Samaritan job for the year, you know, kind of thing. And um, what they do, what they offer. And, and some people may not know this, but in, in nonprofits let's say the service that you're providing is three grand or the flat number three grand. What they're willing to is let's just say 800. Right. You can take that difference.
Mike Hernandez (13:39):
And it's a lot of times it's called like something like an incline donation and get the credit for taxes at the end of the year, as if you, you provided that service and you may have not gotten paid that, but you still get the, uh, the write off, you know, the write off. So, um, a lot of the previous work I did with them was that, and, um, and it was one of those I've done a lot for them. It's a lot of goodness of my heart. It's a great, great, uh, organization. I stand by what they do and it's phenomenal. Um, but I spent like four years doing a ton of stuff for them and I kind of felt like, all right, you know, it's time to move on, you know? And they just came back recently. And so I was actually very surprised.
Mike Hernandez (14:14):
I, I told them what the rate would be for what, what they're asking for. And it would be something I can't remember what the actual undiscounted rate would be. And it was like something like 2 2500, I think. And, um, they're willing to do 1200. So I was actually very happy one day shoot and some posts.
Yeah. You know, one man band. Um, but actually that was the most they've ever paid me. And I was actually really happy to see that they saw the value, what I was providing. Um, but there was something there, but, uh, I've also invested a lot in the relationship with them. And I think they've seen that I've been good to them over the last four years.
Ariel Martinez (14:47):
That's good. Yeah. I've, I've worked with nonprofits before and sometimes they pay my full rate and sometimes they, you know, they'll ask not the same different nonprofit they'll ask for this conduct rate. And I have no problem, especially if I agree with the work that they're doing and I haven't taken advantage of those tax breaks yet, but I do know that they exist. It's just, I just haven't taken advantage of it. But yeah. That's where all of a sudden my rate goes to like $20,000 and I'm getting a tax break for a $15,000. No, I'm just kidding. No, no. So, uh, I have worked with those before and that they, I mean, it's nice. It's nice. Um, sometimes I like to take opportunities like that and try to something that I would like to create and they're usually For it. So it's a trade off too, cuz I, I make a project that I wanna make right. For them as well. And my way cetera, it's kinda like doing a free work for, for a client, for someone, um,
Mike Hernandez (15:47): And
Ariel Martinez (15:47):
Milky. And so, you know, they're, they're getting benefit out of it. I'm getting benefit. Um, I'm I can continue to practice my creativity and my craft and all that stuff. Um, and it's fun. It's fun to work on your terms.
Mike Hernandez (16:00):
Yeah. Like with that particular job that I just did, I'll be, I'll be showing some posts on color grading with it and just trying to get more out of, you know, what I did with that job and just kind of show some of the stuff you can do in post with it. Yeah.
Ariel Martinez (16:12):
Yeah. Those are fun. Those are always fun to do. Um, but so what about when the client starts becoming very difficult to work with? You've been working with a client and the relationship for some, for one reason or another is going sour. We're talking about a client that you've been working with for a while and things aren't the same anymore. Right. So I don't know if you've experienced this, but things aren't the same. You started off well, and then for one reason or another, they either are paying later or they're dis uh, disputing your rates or, uh, they have an issue with who the, the amount of work that they're getting from you at this rate. Like for some reason there starts to be some sort of tension. It could be cuz you're growing and they wanna continue to pay the same. Um, how do we handle that?
Mike Hernandez (17:15):
Um, so I recently just had somewhat of a falling out, um, where it was it's a another long term project. And um, the rate I was getting last year on this long term project was appropriate and they just pulled the rug under the entire project and uh, dropped the rate so significantly, um, to where it competed back with my now I'm shooting for this. And it competes back with my first AC rates and my even back in the day with, um, with just assisting rates. Right. And so what first thing I did was I helped them out to at least get started, cuz I honestly, you know, I felt bad for them. They didn't know what the heck they
were doing. Right. And so I, I gave them the first one at a higher rate. Um, I had charged, I had offered 900 to DP.
Mike Hernandez (18:09):
Um, then they brought me down to six 50. I said seven. Then they said no, six 50. And then now they wanna pay four 50. And I was like, what in the world just happened? And so they agreed to the six 50 moving forward. They wanted to do four 50 and I pretty much told them, uh, the look there's a few other guys that could probably do this for you. Um, I don't want to come into this with, with the attitude that, um, that maybe you guys won't like, and, and I won't be happy here. And so with the agreement, after many conversations, many frustrating nights kind of dealing with this, uh, came down to decision that we one, if I'm doing nothing on the day that they decide to shoot and I have no gigs, I have no editing, nothing. I'd rather do that than to be home doing nothing.
Mike Hernandez (18:59):
Sure. And so I let them know that if I'm available, I'll say yes, if I have any other one of my clients within a two day notice, I'm telling, I told them, I'm gonna give you two day notice if any of my clients cause any of 'em pay more than this, um, call me then, you know, just, I'll let, I'll give you a two day notice and, and, and you know, you won't have me for that and I'll give you a few other options. Um, but that's kind of where it got to and, and it was kind of hairy. Um, and, and it, the last time I shot with them, I felt my attitude was, was, was hard to be happy about what I'm doing. And, um, I kept on having one of those. It's not my responsibility cuz because it's not. Yeah. And even the guy agreed, it's not, but then it's really hard when you're, you've been DPing for long enough where you see things that could be better.
Mike Hernandez (19:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or how, how a light reacts, how out if you move it to scrape the wall, you get the reflection of it. You don't just point it right at the wall. Right. And all these little things that they had no clue how to, how to make it work. And I could not just drop down to position I was hired for, I had, I just, by nature, it was itching too much. I kind of just stepped up again, just took that DP role, even though I wasn't getting paid for that. Um, nor was at my position. And uh, but from there on out, um, I haven't been back and um, cuz I've had gigs and I've had two they've shot twice already. I've had two other clients call me and those are my priority and, and they know it. They know where I stand, they know my integrity, they know I I've gone above and beyond to even help them.
Mike Hernandez (20:31):
Um, but yeah, that's kind of where that ended or continuing at this point. Uh, another, another story that's happened to me and it wasn't recent. It was some time ago. So, um, this guy I was working with, we had a, a semi long term contract. I would say it wasn't a contract. It was just like a gig that would probably last about maybe five months. And then there was another project that he was invited to. That was probably about six videos. That's about six weeks worth of work, spread out over course of time. Okay. So he's involved in these two different client jobs. Okay. We, we met him at the studio I used to work at and there's a DP on shoot I'm B cam, um, slash AC grip and everything else involved. All right. And so he comes in as a live editor, starts vocalizing how much he knows, tries to undermine the DP.
Mike Hernandez (21:19):
Um, we were not, we, we weren't having that cuz you know, there's efficacy saying in your lane and little by little, we couldn't, we couldn't fathom why, but he seemed to have this connection with the
deep, with the producer that like had this, like we, we don't know why he was being granted, all these things and almost more authority. Wow. And he was just a live editor. Then he came in on another shoot as B cam with the same producer. And this time he undermined the DP, not only by constantly giving his input, but actually bringing in, bringing in his Fs seven, which at the time was like the FX nine today. And he brought it in at no charge to kind of start getting in that door. That if you go with me, you get all of this and you won't have to pay rentals.
Mike Hernandez (22:06):
And eventually, um, to completely took the job over from almost the entire crew. This one guy what's interesting is that this guy has done this on another job as well. And the one that I talked about that's about six weeks worth of work came in, same thing, offered all this stuff for free. They only pay for, I guess, his, his service to be DP or camera op or whatever it is. And, and um, this person has been known in the game to have a reputation of stealing gigs from everyone he works with. In fact, even calling clients to be able to just go directly to him instead of how he met them. And so, you know, you have to be careful how you build a reputation, this small industry down here, at least in Miami and Broward and all Fort Lauderdale. Right. Um, and so it's really difficult dealing with, with someone like that and, and having to eventually kind of cut off, get to that point where it's like, listen, if you're gonna entertain this person who came up from nowhere and is offering all of these things that really is a disservice to the industry, um, then I'm, I'm just gonna have to cut off ties and it's morally, I, I can't support this.
Mike Hernandez (23:11):
I don't want anyone else to be going through this. And it's starting to become an environment where it's almost hostile and it's almost toxic and why would I, why would I wanna be a partisan like that? And so it's just, if it's not a joy to do the gig and you feel like you ever hear like the whole corporate America thing of everyone stabbing each in the back to get to the higher levels. Sure. It felt like that in the freelance world, it's like a game of throne owns type of deal. And uh, so I honestly, I, I just, the DP and I got together, we were like, let's just step away from this. Let this guy do whatever it is he wants, cuz it's just not worth it. They're now haggling us for every single rate. Just let him do his thing and let's step away from this toxic environment. And that's, that was what caused us to do that.
Ariel Martinez (23:55): That's interesting, man.
Mike Hernandez (23:57):
And this person's name is just kidding.
Ariel Martinez (24:00):
Yeah. No, I mean, it it's very tricky when it comes to thing like that, man. Um, that's interesting that you brought up a scenario cuz I, I don't think I've dealt with this cuz I do a lot of direct to client stuff. So usually I'm the one hiring the people that, that I need to work with. Um, but yeah, rejecting work because you don't want to work with certain people. So that's, that's a thing apparently I didn't know that. Yeah.
Mike Hernandez (24:29):
Well it's I didn't think of it. It's unique, right? Yeah. Well it's just unique to every, every production's not the same, you know, and every client's not the same. Um, but there's just, sometimes there's people
you just don't wanna work with. It's just not worth it. Um, because you open up yourself a with a door with this particular person sure. That they're gonna continue stealing your clients. It's just not.
Ariel Martinez (24:45):
Did you tell your client the reason why? Or did you just say I'm not available anymore?
Mike Hernandez (24:51):
No, didn't I didn't wanna didn't wanna burn a bridge. Sure, sure. I just was like, uh, let's just say the
client, the producer was pushing that route anyway. So it got to the point where they
Ariel Martinez (25:01):
Wouldn't, they wouldn't have cared it,
Mike Hernandez (25:03):
They, they were making it so difficult to work with them. Right. That we were like, we get the picture, we see where you want to go with this and we're just gonna back away slowly. Yeah. You know, kind of one of those things, not burner bridge. Um, but just let them run with this idea. Right.
Ariel Martinez (25:19): That's
Mike Hernandez (25:19):
An interesting, because the reason why, the reason why is cuz they kept coming back and saying, well, can you provide this at this? Can you provide this? But don't charge us for gear. Can you provide this a studio? But you pay for the studio? Yeah. When, what?
Ariel Martinez (25:31): Yeah. Oh man.
Mike Hernandez (25:35): Yeah.
Ariel Martinez (25:35):
So I have this client now that I currently have on retainer.
Mike Hernandez (25:39):
Oh it's my client. Oh, it's probably your client. We're dealing with the same person.
Ariel Martinez (25:43):
No, no. It's basically a client that I have on retainer. Right. I have them on a retainer, long story short, basically we agreed. They didn't have such a huge budget to keep me on retainer, but I'm not doing most of the work. Right. I have one of my editors handling that and we're doing a great job, but I did agree. We'll do the productions. Right. So it's only six months. They, it for a year. I said only six months.
Uh, this is really, I just want to see how this works. And I told him that specifically hands down. Um, I just wanted
Mike Hernandez (26:17):
To, for both parties, it's a good
Ariel Martinez (26:18):
Idea. I think that that would be the safe way to go because if it doesn't work out, cuz I, they know how busy I am. Again, this is, I've actually been working with this client for a long time, but this is the time they considered putting me on retainer. Um, I'm all, I'm all for retainers if it makes sense. And so the retainer was nice, but I know that the amount of work that they require is a ton. So anyways, uh, we got to work and I had agreed to do a certain amount of productions in these six month span. They have things coming up, lined up events, et cetera, et cetera. And I was supposed to be there to manage the video team. Right. Uh, but you know, and fortunate and I, and I've completed everything that we had on schedule, everything we had on schedule.
Ariel Martinez (27:06):
I stayed on my calendar. I stuck with that and you know, whatever, uh, we got those done. The problem really came in when they had, you know, we still have productions that we can schedule. But the problem is every time that they're asking me to do it, I'm already booked and they know how busy I get at. So I'm, I'm fully booked for the last like five productions I've been booked on the days that they needed to get. Now the first time, the first two times that I was booked and I couldn't make it, I had to pay out of my pocket for somebody to go and fill in my spot. Right. And I did that to keep my client happy. I knew that they didn't want to sort of take on that burden. And I kind of offered that out of, I didn't have to, I really didn't have to, but I did the third time they were expecting me to do that.
Ariel Martinez (27:57):
And I kind of drew the line there. I said, you guys are asking me two weeks in advance and I already have something book that day. Like that's, it's kind of like, I didn't tell 'em, it's not my problem cuz I, I, I never say that. Um, I, I told him, unfortunately I'm already booked and I cannot afford to continue to pay out of my pocket for people because I'm already booked that day. You know? Um, and we, we kind of went back to the contract, et cetera, et cetera. And the agreement, you know, I'm not nowhere in there to say I have to pay out of pocket if I'm booked. And I do see where it says, if I'm already booked, you have to find somebody else, you know, essentially. Um, so they were a little frustrated there, but you know, they have nowhere else to go in the sense of have no argument.
Ariel Martinez (28:46):
You know, if I'm booked because you didn't book me. If, if you would've told me I would've had it. And then if another job comes in, I'll figure it out. And, but, you know, because you came to me first, your priority and I stick to my word on that, but you know, I started, you know, um, and we're still going good. We're still going good. I, I like to try to keep cordial, even disagreements. I like to keep 'em cordial. Uh, and, and you know, and I told them, this is unfortunate. And you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, but you know, this is kind of like what I was kind of letting you know that I'm, I get very busy. There's a reason why I have an editor handling all of your work. Cause there's no possible way that I would be able to handle this contract myself.
Ariel Martinez (29:25):
It's in possible. Put it that way. And I wouldn't wanna step into this knowing that I couldn't do that work. Right. Um, and that's why we had those, um, preliminary, uh, parameters put in place. You know, if you have to book me, that's fine. Let me know when, where, et cetera, et cetera. And you basically, you take PRI not you take priority, but just tell me as soon as you know, so that we can coordinate this, you know, and then there was this other time where we already had something booked, but they moved it. They shifted it a couple of days because of the athletes that were coming in, had some schedule conflicts. And this was the only day it ended up from being like a Monday to a Wednesday. And then that Wednesday was the only day where all the athletes were able to come and it was kind of out of their hands.
Ariel Martinez (30:12):
But unfortunately I was booked that day. So we had to shift and mind you mind you, I help them find somebody, you know, like, I'll go and do my part. And again, I don't have to do this stuff. You know, I'll go above and beyond for my clients and try to accommodate them as much as possible. I'll go and I'll help them find somebody I'm calling people. I'm seeing their rates, I'm doing all that. So I'm doing their job essentially. Uh, cuz that wasn't, I don't have to, but I try to, I, I want to keep them happy. I wanna make sure that they're like a producer that they're receiving a good product from me. Um, but at the end of the day,
Ariel Martinez (30:50):
Really, it comes down to the angel saying that business is business, you know, so gotta take care of my business. I gotta make sure that I'm still pushing forward and not being plateaued by one client. Right. I need to continue to grow and manage my business efficiently. Not trying to take care of clients that are just gonna bring me down. And I'm not saying that that's what they're doing. Uh, I'm just saying I can't allow that to happen. But at the same time, I'm trying to find and maneuver ways to make sure that they're happy at the same time moving my business forward. So, um, that was, uh, that's sort of that scenario there, but I think that that's the only time I really don't have other, uh, and any other time where the pay has been less. Yeah. And they're, they're one of my clients that actually I've been working with them for a long time. They hired me for very little money, but you know what, they're one of my clients that, you know, it's fun to work with them. They're they've brought me other work too. I've been working with them for a while and really just to help them out. Um, but it's almost getting to a point almost getting to a point where,
Ariel Martinez (32:01):
Um, I feel like they're milking it at this point. Like they're not, they've grown, the business have grown,
but they want to keep their rates, their, their budgets the same. Um,
Mike Hernandez (32:14):
If you consider just revisiting a new contract with them, uh,
Ariel Martinez (32:19):
I wouldn't mind. I think the end of the, I think the end of the six months is now in November or
December, it might be no. Mike Hernandez (32:25):
So maybe like just start planting those seeds that, Hey,
Ariel Martinez (32:28):
Oh they, this is what's. They already know. They already know. Yeah. Getting, I already been telling 'em this is way more work than, um, was expected. But I said, you know what? We're getting through it. We're hacking. Like I, I give them confidence that it's getting done no matter what, but they know that if they wanna renew some sort of agreement, it's gonna be much more, I highly doubt they're gonna want to pay them much more. Um, which is okay with me, you know? But, um, it,
Mike Hernandez (32:57):
What are your thoughts on, uh, every recently had this happen with one of my clients where, um, and
please understand, I'm not saying this with an egotistical manner, you
Ariel Martinez (33:05): In maniac,
Mike Hernandez (33:06):
I am, I am. This is I put God on here to keep me, keep me grounded. Um, no, no, no. I'm just kidding. Um, where one of my clients, I, I kind of in a sense have outgrown them. And so my rates have reflected that and I'm kind of having to do every once in a while do kind of retrospective, you know, with my business. It's like, okay, I can't be having the, the smaller projects holding me back from moving forward. So something's gotta be done. And, and the way I chose to handle that was my rates have gone up. Um, if, if you want me to continue working on this project, yes, my rates have gone up because my demand has gone up and, and they can understand that, you know? And so I will be available if you can meet sure where I'm at, because I'm getting this amount of work, meeting me at this rate. And so at that point, that client decides whether they come up with me or they find someone else and, and I have to be okay with that. You know?
Ariel Martinez (33:58):
So I have a, a have a very, I think, uh, a good perspective on this, cuz it happens all the time, right? As we grow, we, we have relationships that we've built, uh, throughout the years. Um, my whole opinion on that essentially comes down to, are they good people to work with? I would, I would, I would see it differently. I would encourage you and anybody else that is sort of in the same boat where they have some clients that they still wanna continue to pay a little bit, or even if it's a new client that just doesn't have that higher budget. Yes. It's always a transaction, a mutual transaction. You work, you get paid. Right. But what if you don't see the value in the money that they're paying you, but you see value in the relationship that you're building or in the project that you're doing.
Ariel Martinez (34:48):
Right. So I, I today I'll do a job for 400 bucks, but who am I doing it for? What can they, what else can they offer me? Meaning relationship wise, is there a benefit to doing, to being a part of this production? Right. Um, a perfect example of that is the, uh, the documentary for the documentary for, uh, uh, magic Johnson that is being shot. I learned so much, and that was so valuable to me that the monetary compensation that was given to me, hailed in comparison to the value, the lesson that I learned and the relationship that I made, right? The people that I got to meet, the things that I can put on my real now.
So I would encourage you to look at monetary value as just one of the many variables and many offerings that a client can bring to you.
Ariel Martinez (35:40):
Even if they have a small budget. Now, clients, sorry. Now clients may not know that they're offering you this, but indirectly with your, with your work, with your ethic, with your attitude, with your service, everything you're giving them, they're gonna wanna work with you. They're gonna wanna refer other client clients to you. So consider those variables before you dismiss a client for not having the budget that you're charging. So just consider those things. And again, this comes from experience, not just from a book that I read, like this has real time stuff happening to me right now. So be able to work with a client, provide a great service regardless of the price that they're paying you. And you'll see the benefit on the other side, not just on the check that they're writing to you. Does that make sense?
Mike Hernandez (36:30):
Yeah. I didn't wanna talk over you cuz this is a great sound bite that you could use this client. None of those things applied. Oh man. Well, I mean, but no, what you're saying is sound advice. It's perfect for all of my other clients, this particular client that I'm referring to, um, burned a bridges, uh, takes advantage net 45. Um,
Ariel Martinez (36:48):
But don't ignore the flags either.
Mike Hernandez (36:50):
Yeah, exactly. So for this particular one that I'm referring to is just none of those things apply and there is no relationship where they would be referring any one it's a studio work. Yeah. And so, but yes, I, I totally agree with everything you're saying. And um, I definitely would apply that to yeah. All of my normal clients yeah. Where they contact me for work.
Ariel Martinez (37:08):
Yeah. And, and mind you, this contract that I'm in the agreement that I'm in, I've heard, I've seen flags. That's another reason why I told them we're only doing into six months when they wanted to do it for a year. Um, and I did that on purpose smart and I purposely had to have one of my editors read on standby. Once we signed it, he signed with me for six months for the exact amount. And basically he just communicates with that client. I'm kind of like the middle person and essentially they communicate only, I, I don't even know what's going on over there, but I get the check. I, I cut him a check. Right. That's sort of our deal. Um, And everything's going smooth so far. Uh, I'm getting good reports from my client. I'm getting good reports from my editor. Smooth, all good. And I'm nice and I'm not basically doing anything. I'm just getting my small commission. I, I get, I pay him. But
Mike Hernandez (38:00): Yeah.
Ariel Martinez (38:01):
But yeah, I mean, it's not, you know, the only thing that was extra was sort of the, uh, the shoots that I had to help them do. Right. Again, this was more of an experimental thing and also a client that I was
trying to help out. They were in a pinch when they were finding, uh, somebody else to take over this work. But I heard some stuff how demanding they can be and, and definit it showed. Um, if I would've, it would've driven me nuts if I had to do that all myself. So consider that, consider that I wanna try to keep them happy. I want to try to make sure they get what they're they need within reason, within reason. And I fully understand, like even people that the, the person that is in charge of media, there is also understanding too. Um, the person that is above her, they're the ones making a lot of demand.
Ariel Martinez (38:48):
A lot of demands from her. I feel bad for her. She's putting a bad spot. That's her full-time job to get this content done. They give her a budget. She has to go find somebody else. And, but the, the quality that they're expecting is like way up there, you know, and the, the, the amount and, you know, she, she's trying to make them realize, listen, we can't get, continue to do this. Like, they're, they're burning bridges. I don't know if it's really burning bridges, but yeah, they're, they're really like running short on the amount of people in Miami that they can call to do this stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:23): Ouch. It's
Ariel Martinez (39:24):
A, it's a, they've already had like six people in this position and I'm talking six in like five years. Yeah. So they can't keep the people. She, they tell me that because they get burned out, they get burned out. There's no possible way they could ever do any other client work besides theirs, for the amount of stuff that they, that they're requiring and the quality and the, the, the level that they're requiring it at. So it's one of those things. So I guess at the end of the day, like you really, there, there's several different variables that you have to consider before you decide to cut ties, because once you cut that tie with a client, like there's kind of no going back, right. You already cut ties with them. So I, I know it's, and it's a scary thing to do often times. So you want to hitter making sure that you're absolutely sure.
Ariel Martinez (40:19):
Um, you know, is this having this relationship, having this client, are you profiting from this? And again, I think we spoke about this before. Not only monetarily, but have they referred other clients to you? Is the work that you're doing with them, helping you build your business? Is it helping you master your craft? Um, and is that worth keeping at what value right? The people that you're working with is that helping, or is that hurting you? Is that hindering you? Is it changing your emotional state? Like that, that whole deal? Um, working with people that just really like, it, it, it changes you, you need to be excited about going to work. Like, you know, there's times where I've come home from a 12 hour day shoot and man, I'm happy, man. I'm happy was a good shoot. I'm exhausted, but I'm happy that we had so such a great shoot, et cetera, et cetera, you know, I am tired, but, or are you coming home, man? I'm so happy that that's done. I couldn't take that anymore. Like, et cetera, et cetera. We've had those shoots before too. Um, so consider though, and, and
Mike Hernandez (41:34):
I would say also too, like not every gig is gonna be like a dream dream job too. Like there's not of course
gigs that you just gotta get through it sometimes, you know, evaluate what Ariel Martinez (41:42):
Continue. Yeah. There's so much work that I do that it's kind of boring as heck. It's like, whatever, but the pays good. Those are the ones that like, they usually pay. So that's what you have going for. Yeah. Hey, listen, we'll do almost any job if it, the pay is there, you know, if the pay is there, what do you need me to shoot? Where do you need me to point the camera? What do you need me to, like, I'm fine with it. I don't care how boring it is. I'm getting paid for this. Um, but also you have to consider those variables. Um, and even if they're paying you well, is it worth your sanity? You know, is it worth the work that you're putting into it? Um, I think we have to evaluate our priorities and really like our compensation differently. I think that a lot of people, a lot of freelancers, they're not considering other variables that they should when evaluating whether or not they should maintain clients. And I think that they might be missing a thing or two there,
Ariel Martinez (42:47):
And it could be dangerous. Not that you know, this hasn't happened to me, but I can see how this happens, right. Where somebody can, can not see something that's happening at the moment. Right. So what's happening at the moment is let's say you would, you were to stay at that job that you just told us about where it's a toxic environment. It's becoming a hostile work environment and, um, you're miserable. You're miserable and little by, you're not liking this industry anymore. You're not looking for growth anymore. You're not looking for other opportunities anymore. It's putting a bad, a bad stigma in your head, a bad state of mind that is not allowing you to grow as a professional and seek out other clients. So you have to be careful about out that as well. So I would definitely encourage everybody to try to keep yourself in an environment, especially if it's a long term one, somewhere where you're gonna be happy doing what you're doing, not necessarily like you love the content that you're shooting at the moment, but the people that you're working with at the same time, you know, and, um, always consider your comp your monetary compensation.
Ariel Martinez (43:58):
That's always first thing, but look at other avenues as well.
Mike Hernandez (44:03):
Yeah. I was on a, on a long term project once where it's like, it was worth nurturing the relationship within it because I knew I was getting committed to, to these people for a while. Right. And it's just, it's just worth nurturing that and being good to people. Um, because you're, you're kind of talk with them for a little bit. Um, yeah. And, uh, and the relationships like we talked about many times relationships can, can grow to so many incredible projects in the future.
Ariel Martinez (44:25):
I've had, I've had relationships where I build connections that have brought me some good work on sets. You know, the people that, another camera oper a sound guy. I have a sound guy that still calls me today. Hey, this production out here is looking for a camera operator with an FX nine you're available. Yeah. Let's do it. Great. You know, build those relationships you want, not only your client, but the people that you work with to refer you as well, Make yourself
Mike Hernandez (44:53):
Available. Yeah. One thing I'm always trying to do is, uh, it's kind of like, um, like, uh, what's that called? Um, like the commerce. Um, I forget what I forgot. I used to go to it back when I was younger and in doing, trying to do sales, um, go to different meetings where you try to refer. So one thing I always try to
do is refer as much work as possible. Anything that I can get, um, that I can't cover, I'm constantly trying to refer. Right. And if I can tack on, so I can still be in control of the project, I always try to. Yeah. Um, but I'm always trying to supply all my connections with as much work as possible. Um, because I know it also comes back. Yeah. You know, what, what goes out comes back and, uh, just being a blessing to, of people in the industry and they wanna work with you, they see that you legitimately care for their business and their growth.
Ariel Martinez (45:36):
That's good. That's good. Cool dude. So I think these are all like great scenarios. Uh, if anyone listening to this has any questions regarding anything we mentioned, or you have any specific scenarios that you're going with, let us know, go over to I filmmaker podcast.com. You can leave us a voice message right on the website, whether on your phone or on a desktop computer, you can leave a voice message and we'll play it back right on the episode. Uh, I think that would be cool to ha start having segments like that, where we can play back a subscribers voice message, and we can discuss what they're asking. So I think that that'd be cool segment. So let us know your thoughts on this. And we'd love to know your opinions on anything that we said here. Whether you agree disagree, or you have just different a view I'm always interested to seeing different takes, which is why I have Mr. Big Mike here to get his take on different scenarios. So anyways, big Mike, I think that's a wrap on this one.
Mike Hernandez (46:38): It's been
Ariel Martinez (46:38): Fun. Any last words?
Mike Hernandez (46:41):
Yeah. There's power in walking away and saying, I ain't working with you no more.
Ariel Martinez (46:47):
You have the power, just walk away with your fist, held up high and say freedom. All right, man. As always, you guys can look, find us over on instagram@ifilmmakerpodcast.com, TN studios, Inc on Instagram from big Mike and Miami's Ariel Martinez films on Instagram as well. So we'll see you guys on the next episode of the ifilmmaker podcast later.